I hope you all keep listening to the overview audio files, but we need to press on.
I've posted audio for Joel, Jonah, and Amos.
As you listen to Dr. Staats teach on Joel you will notice he presents a case for women in ministry.
Whether you agree with his view or not, discuss:
1.) Whether or not you feel he covered appropriate texts.
2.) What scripture would you add to the discussion?
3.) No "agism," no "sexism," and no "classism" are terms Dr. Staats uses. What does he mean?
4.) What strikes you in Jonah or Amos?
Feel free to continue to post comments to the week 1 discussion. Since we got off to a slow start I will extend the time for week 1 postings to allow you to cover your required 2 postings per week. I still would like you to post twice on this or some other topic related to prophets for this week as well.
--- marty ---
I enjoy the book of Jonah and always have. I could literally listen to it or read it every week if not every day. The authenticity of Jonah's personality is always striking - like a whining child, or spoiled adult - and metaphorically Jonah's behavior can be applied to our behavior on so many levels.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Jonah does not follow the predominant prophetic pattern of judgement, repentance, and redemption. It is more of a narrative - a conversation, if not a debate or argument, with God. One that I have, as Jonah did, often.
Brian
Brian I think we all could agree that we have these moments with God as Jonah experienced. We don't see the magnitude of God's love for all people as we should. Maybe this is one reason why we are in this class. The Prophets yet speak today as they did to Judah and Israel about many things. I know that I want to move through spiritual blindness in some issues about forgiveness of past hurts and am anticipating that the voices of long ago yet speak today.
DeleteI agree. The prophets do indeed speak today as they did to Judah and Israel - and we ignore them as did Judah and Israel. We live in a culture of sin and we refuse to even name it as such. We convince ourselves with every tiny step deeper into the abyss that it really is not that bad, or we are still OK because we are Christians and the rest of the world will can (and will) suffer but somehow not us. the world is spiritually blind, we know that and as as one called to be a spiritual leader, being exposed to spiritual leaders as I am, I feel more often than not that it is the blind who are leading the blind.
DeleteBrian
Where is our Nineveh?
DeleteWhere is the place God is calling us to go that we really do not want to go? The people we really do not want to see God forgive?
--- marty ---
Brian,
ReplyDeleteDo you see God's grace in the narrative?
Grace with Jonah - how many chances did God give him? ( I think more than two...)
Grace with Nineveh - as Jonah thought would happen.
Grace with ...us?
--- marty ---
The story of Jonah IS the story of Grace. From beginning to end God works in the context of Jonah's humanity - his selfish, egotistical, ignorant, self-important humanity - so that God could demonstrate HIS perfect patience, love, and ultimately his forgiveness. forgiveness for both behaviors, thoughts and attitudes,
DeleteRelative to the issue of women and the ministry, I have a variety of mixed feelings regarding this topic. Ultimately, I firmly believe the the ministry of the Holy Spirit is universal - for both sexes and all races. We are a community of faith. WE are the body of Christ.
That being said, the body needs a head and I also believe in the Biblical principle that husbands and elders are charged with the responsibilities of leadership and will be help accountable for the spiritual health of our families and churches. (Hebrews 13:17)
So as you can see, although I am not fully persuaded to the egalitarian point of view, this is an issue that I am still working out in practical terms. Dr. Staat's point of view is compelling and I appreciate his scholarship.
Brian
I loved hearing Dr. Staats speak to women in ministry and the parallels of Joel and the New Testament especially in Acts 1 and 2 along with 1 Corinthians 11. He brings out the uniqueness we all have by the empowering of the Holy Spirit whether male or female. I also appreciated him speaking about attitude and morality whether male or female as paramount.
ReplyDeleteHugh,
DeleteYes, can we have a servant's attitude as Paul encourages us to in the great passage of Philippians 2:1-11? I often have people come up to me and want me to support their particular view of men or women in ministry, but I seldom have them come asking, "How can I better serve in the sex that I am?"
--- marty ---
Marty I prefer this blog venue as it is easy to publish and respond to someones ideas.
ReplyDeleteYes, I prefer t this venue.
Delete--- marty ---
I want to continue in the discussion of women in ministry and address a couple of point that you brought up.
ReplyDeleteWhat scripture would you add to the discussion? I think of Galatians 3:28 speaking to there is neither Jew or Greek, bond nor free, male or female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Here he is speaking to larger categories in their cultural understanding. In Christ Jesus - is the greater topic of importance than culturally oriented understanding. When we are in Christ Jesus and we know it then we do not see or promote differences in our sphere of influence. We accept all as God does; Inner or outer, slave or free, male or female. We extend God's love to all.
I have been richly blessed over the years by women in ministry. I find in them the nurturing faith we are to extend to others. In my installation service as pastor, 5 women were the ones leading the meeting and speaking as to what God was doing in our church. It was an awesome time and I am proud to have stood there with them. One was my wife. I guess what is posted would include no agism, sexism and no classism would be included. When we seek to see others as Christ does and are one in him there are no distinctions. These are simply our neighbor we are to love as we love ourselves.
Hugh,
DeleteAs you say, this is another important Scripture in the discussion about men and women's roles in ministry.
Has the atonement brought by Christ's death and Resurrection brought about a complete return to the pre-fall state of believers?
--- marty ---
What really stood out to me in Jonah was he always seemed so ready to die. First when he told the crew to throw him over board then at the end when he became so angry about the worm eating the vine that he could die. Just thought it was interesting...
ReplyDeleteIn my own study of Jonah I thought it was interesting that his name means Dove and God was actually sending a messenger of peace to the most violent people in the known world.
I also like to think that the Ninevehites actually witnessed Jonah being spit up on the shore by this great fish. I think his message had a much deeper impact because of this since the Ninevehites god was the fish god. I'm sure his complexion and seem were a little fishy while preaching in their city may have given him even more creditability, but who knows.
Daniel,
DeleteCould we say, "Ready to die and yet still in God's grace?"
Grace when he rebels and runs away. Grace when he is swallowed by the fish. Grace when he is given a second chance. Grace when he is given the plant to shade him, and grace when God stills seeks to teach him in the midst of his bad attitude.
Also notice God's grace with Nineveh - their children and even their cattle.
--- marty ---
Wow. I never saw Jonah's readiness to die. I think it is important to understand how someone so anointed and called by God can be willing to end his life before he lives out God's call for his life. I am now more sensitive to the heaviness of the call of God on one's life. We can't take our leaders for granted. Many times, they are just as scared and unsure as we are. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
DeleteMarty,
DeleteI like you perspective on that. Truthfully I never even thought about Jonah still being in God's grace, but now that I look back on it I believe he was.
I always have the same reaction when reading Jonah. It is so easy to slip into the mindset that says, "I know what I'm doing, and I don't need God's help anymore". Jonah teaches us that we can run but we can't hide. I remember my own Nineveh. I was supposed to literally be in one city, but because I didn't want to give up the life I had built for myself in a different city, I tried to stay. Every door I tried to open in my life was quickly shut. I couldn't find a job, I was running out of money, I was running out of friends; my season in this particular city had ran out. But i was a lot like Jonah and thought that I knew what was best for me. When I read Jonah, my prayer is that I always yield to the Holy Spirit and make my flesh obey God.
ReplyDelete